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Well here we are at the famous computer
cafe with our guest Jim Zuber.

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First of all welcome to the cafe.

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Thank you very much Michael.

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Um, tell us a little bit about yourself.
I know you, uh, I know you pretty well,

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but I know many of our listeners don't
know who you are, even though they've

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probably seen some of your software,
even if they haven't.

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Well, um, I guess the best place to
start is I'm kind of a dyed in the wool

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computer hobbyist, got into this thing
around 1975, bought one of the first Kim

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One microcomputers from the old MOS
technology that Commodore eventually bought.

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Started one of the first microcomputer
clubs in the Los Angeles area called the

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6502 users groups and wrote articles
and kind of got into the whole computer

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hobbyist scene about the time the
Apple and Commodore were introduced.

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Um, pursued my corporate career,
which wasn't in

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computers,
was for a large printer manufacturer.

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And about three years ago,
after making a little bit of money in the stock

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market, losing about half of it,
I decided to write a game for the IBM personal

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computer that kind of modeled my experiences
in the stock market and I kind of

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hoped would prevent other people from
making the stupid mistakes that I made.

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And that was the, that was millionaire.

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And, uh, since then we wrote tycoon,
the commodity market simulation, Baron, the

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real estate simulation,
and our latest product Squire

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is a financial planning simulation.

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You know, interestingly enough,
a lot of people, I've been talking with some

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folks who, who really feel that software
is a way in which to help create within

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an individual's mind, uh, uh,
an order, so to speak, of how

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to go about doing certain things.

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For instance, let's take millionaire.

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It gives you, what,
15 different stocks in five industries, right?

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That's right.
15 stocks in five industry groups.

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And basically what the game allows you to
do is to experience, through a computer

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simulation, something that would cost
you thousands of dollars in many, many

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months or perhaps years, uh, to learn.

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And it's kind of what we refer to it
as learning the market fundamentals.

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You learn the essence of the marketplace
so that you don't make stupid mistakes.

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And the computer,
to be honest with you, is by far the

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best vehicle to convey those lessons.

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One of the neatest things about getting
exposed to the millionaire in any of your

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games, let's say you have millionaire,
tycoon, Baron, and, and your newest one

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Squire, which gives you all of the
different things that you can do.

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It's like a real-time financial, uh, game.

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But, but the interesting thing
that I found is that I, I didn't

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have to know how to use a computer.

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I mean, I push this button and push
a couple buttons, but it's really

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about engaging in the game.

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That's right. I think our, uh, I think
the best analogy that I've heard is that,

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and our, our company president, Bob Slifen,
uses this, is that, um, it's a game

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that happens to use the
rules of the real world.

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Okay. It's, it's this, you know,
it's a stock market game.

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You, you sit down and you,
it's as easy to play as Pac-Man.

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But, the reality of the situation is that
the rules that are used to govern the

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game are the rules of the real world.

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And when you get done playing the game
and you've had your thrill and you've had

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your fun, you've learned something about
the real world and you're a better

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investor,
a more informed individual as a whole.

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It gives you a better sense. We're gonna
take a call. Hi, you're on the line.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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Um, no, he wants to...

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Oh, okay. I guess it's not for us.
Listen, I'll tell you something.

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The interesting thing that I found about,
uh, with the Squire game is that when

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you, you take only a few stock companies
and you take a few real estate options

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and you do all kinds of things together
in that one, it's not like just

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with one area that's the piece.

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I think the hardest thing we found with Squire,
obviously, with Millionaire

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focusing on just the stock market and
by coming in the commodity market and

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bearing the real estate market, we were
able to develop a game that looked at the

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specific mechanisms for each of those markets.

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The challenge in Squire was to take
everything from the real estate market,

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commodities, bonds, collectibles, uh,
Ira's, money market accounts and try to

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find some common thread through all of
them that would convey a financial lesson.

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And the common thread that we found
that ran through all of these various

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investment vehicles was the
degree of risk associated

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with each individual investment.

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And so what the game shows you very,
very clearly as you sit down to play it is

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that if you put your money in the commodity
market six months before you're gonna

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retire, that gee, that isn't so smart.

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If you put your money in bonds and
interest rates drop, it's just all the

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interrelationships between the investments
is what's unique about Squire, not

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just the fact that you can learn about
the stock market, but you can learn about

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whether the stock market's a better
investment than perhaps real estate.

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A basic scenario. I'm 35 years old
and I'm thinking of retiring at age

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58, okay?

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And, um, okay, so I have those years,
about 23 years, yeah, no, 28 years almost

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or so, that I have to, um, retire in.
Well, I might want to buy a house, right?

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But then I have some extra dollars,
so I might want to also keep my money in a

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money market fund where I can work with
the greatest amount of interest rate.

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Right. I think that what Squire allows
you to do that's really unique is we have

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something called the reality mode that
allows you, when you sit down to play the

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game, to put in what kind of lifestyle
you'd like to maintain when you retire.

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What all of your interim goals,
sending your kids to school and buying a house,

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and then what the game does is it converts
all of that information into assets in

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the game. If you say you have $10,000 for
the stock today, when you start playing

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Squire, you actually have
$10,000 for the stock to work with.

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Wow, so then as you get moving on it,
as you build... ...proper investments

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and you don't have enough money to send
your kids to college, it teaches you how

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to prepare for these unexpected interim
type goals and you can play the game

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many,
many different times with different strategies.

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That's incredible. The folks in LA,
628 KIEV, San Fernando Valley, 989 KIEV,

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South Bay, 835 KIEV, give us a call. Talk

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with Jim. We'll be right back in a moment.

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Supercalc 3 by Sorsom is a spreadsheet
that's extremely easy to use, swift and

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powerful, and it's priced lower than
most other leading spreadsheet programs.

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Supercalc 3 has all the built-in
functions expected in a high quality

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spreadsheet and a lot more.

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Supercalc 3's features include an
on-screen help function, spreadsheet

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consolidation and sorting capabilities,
calendar and date calculations, simple

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data management, functions and windowing.

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The integrated graphics capability is
superbly presented, allowing plotting and

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printing of charts in up to 99 colors.

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Supercalc 3 provides you with the ability
to create pie charts, bar charts, line

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charts and XY graphs.

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The graphics are integrated into the
command structure, so once you learn

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Supercalc 3,
plotting and graphing the results of your

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calculations is as easy as pie.

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To get a taste of the simplicity and
power of Supercalc 3, rock into Simply

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Software, where they'd love to
whip up a quick demonstration.

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Simply Software is located at 3001
Sepulveda Boulevard in Manhattan Beach, or

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call 213-546-2467. That's 213-546

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-2467. Simply Software, a soft sell dealer.

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You know, it's kind of interesting.
You guys are of that breed of companies that

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started out in the garage.
You know how they talk about those young

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entrepreneurial companies who
start out in the garage and

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become overnight successes.

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Give me a bit of sense about that.

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I think the funniest thing I can relate,
I guess, is our first meeting where you

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bought Millionaire and you had a
little bit of trouble with it.

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You called up my partner's garage,
Fobben Eileen Slapen, and they said, gee,

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you'll have to call our customer
support over in Jim's garage.

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And we kind of jokingly called ourselves
the two garage operation, and that's a

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lot different than the 5,000 square foot
of manufacturing space and 20 people.

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We're a real live business now,
and I think our growth kind of parallels the

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growth of the microcomputer
industry as a whole.

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You know, the interesting thing that I'll
point out here is that we've been doing

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a lot of shows, and we travel to different
shows like CES and Condex and a lot

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of different places, and we've been doing them.

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That's really how we get a
lot of these new guests here.

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But this overnight success stuff,
starting from a small garage operation, doesn't

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just happen. You really got to work hard at it.

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And you guys have been really doing an
excellent job. I always see you around,

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and people are really
impressed with your product.

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The interesting thing that I'm curious
about is when you get feedback from people

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about your games. What kind of things come up?

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I think the two most, a couple of little
comments that we get, one will be, gee,

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I bought your real estate game, Baron,
and I've been trying to explain to my wife

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what I've been doing for 10 years.

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She sat down and played Baron, and in 10
minutes now understands what I do from a

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living. And we get that from spouses,
both male and female, for all sorts of

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stockbrokers and commodity brokers.

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We'll get a call from somebody that says,
my God, all the money I didn't lose

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from stupid mistakes by playing your game.

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I mean, how many businesses can you be in
where people thank you for selling them

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the product and say, you know,
you're doing something really socially

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redeeming, and that's a fun thing to do.

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I guess the incredible thing about any,
you know, I used to sell securities, and

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one of the interesting things
about that business is that is one

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of the most asked questions.

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What do I do with my money?
I guess everybody's in the business of wherever

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they're at working hard.
They make this thing called

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money. Now what do they do with it?

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The neat thing about the games is that
people then can begin to practice. If I

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was really going to do it, what would
happen if over the next 20 years I actually

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put $2,000 in my IRA?

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What would the effects of compound
interest actually look like on that?

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Right. I think the thing I always say
is that really it takes three things to

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invest money. Obviously,
you need the time to properly research things.

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You just need that little kernel of knowledge,
that fundamental market knowledge,

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and you also need a proper sense of
timing when to buy and when to sell.

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And the things that our games can
provide you are the fundamental market

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knowledge and a little bit of
practice on the timing issue.

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It can't make you rich quick, but boy,
I'll tell you, it can save you some awful

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big, awful expensive mistakes.

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How many of us have gone out there and
actually wanted to do something and

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realized that it's the experience of
having done it that makes you feel

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more comfortable in a new environment?

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We're going to take a call.
Hi, you're on the line.

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Hi, I'm Aiden. My money is stock market
last November. I spent it on a trip to

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the Orient. But basically the reason I
called is I had an IBM PC and well, I'm

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forced to sell it, paid for my trip,
and I wanted to know how fast, you know, the

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changing technology is.

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What do you think we might see one,
two years from now?

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Well, as a software developer,
we're always grappling with what the latest

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and greatest technology is going to be.

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And to be frank with you, the thing that
we do is we try to write our games in

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languages and using tools
that are independent of the

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hardware technology changes.

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Currently, our software runs on the IBM,
the Apple II, the

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Macintosh, and the Commodore 64.

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And we're ready and prepared
to put our products up on

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any machine that comes down the road.

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To be quite frank with you, sir,
I think the IBM is a good machine.

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And I think if you're going to get rid
of your IBM in hopes of buying something

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greater and spiffier down the road,
you're making a mistake.

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No, actually, I'm only at because one of
the reasons that money factor is that I

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just found the IBM programs are so expensive.

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Well, I think there's a general generally
downward trend in pricing in general.

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But I think that if you look at products
such as ours, the value that you get for

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the money is really what
you ought to be looking at,

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not the absolute price of the software.

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Jim, not that he should be looking and
getting rid of his IBM, but do your games

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run on other computers as well?

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As I just mentioned, they run on the
Commodore 64, the Macintosh, the Apple II,

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and of course the IBM PC and PC units.